A Complete Unknown isn't a traditional biopic. Instead of covering Bob Dylan's life story from birth to old age, it covers the period shortly after his arrival in New York City, as he first begins to fall in with the city's folk music scene. Timothée Chalamet plays Dylan — and does all his own singing. We see Dylan become a superstar, as well as his famous set at the 1965 Newport Folk Festival —where he and his band plugged in for an electrified set that's often viewed as a cultural turning point in America.
Audio transcript
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
STEPHEN THOMPSON, HOST:
"A Complete Unknown" isn't a traditional biopic. Instead of covering Bob Dylan's life story from birth to old age, it covers the period shortly after his arrival in New York City as he first begins to fall in with the city's folk music scene. Timothee Chalamet plays Dylan and does all of his own singing. We see Dylan become a superstar, as well as his famous set at the 1965 Newport Folk Festival. That's the one where he and his band plugged in for an electrified set that's often viewed as a cultural turning point in America. I'm Stephen Thompson, and today we are talking about "A Complete Unknown" on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. Joining me today is The Philadelphia Inquirer's arts and entertainment editor and film critic Bedatri D. Choudhury. Hey, Bedatri.
BEDATRI D CHOUDHURY: Hey, Stephen.
THOMPSON: Also with us is writer Chris Klimek. Hey, Chris.
CHRIS KLIMEK: Hey, Stephen. You know, to do this podcast, I have to put myself in another place. But I'm a stranger there.
CHOUDHURY: (Laughter).
THOMPSON: (Impersonating Bob Dylan) That's right.
Oh, we're not going to do our Dylan impressions (laughter).
KLIMEK: No.
THOMPSON: All right, we'll get there. First, a little backstory - Timothee Chalamet does all his own singing in "A Complete Unknown."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LIKE A ROLLING STONE")
TIMOTHEE CHALAMET: (As Bob Dylan, singing) How does it feel to be on your own, with no direction home?
THOMPSON: So do several of the film's other stars. Monica Barbaro plays Joan Baez.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SILVER DAGGER")
MONICA BARBARO: (As Joan Baez, singing) All men are false, says my mother. They'll tell you wicked loving lies.
THOMPSON: While Edward Norton plays Pete Seeger.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WIMOWEH")
EDWARD NORTON: (As Pete Seeger, singing) A wimoweh (ph), a wimoweh, a wimoweh, a wimoweh, a wimoweh, a wimoweh, a wimoweh - try it.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As characters, singing) A wimoweh, a wimoweh...
NORTON: (As Pete Seeger, singing) A wimoweh, a wimoweh...
THOMPSON: Both Seeger and Baez helped launch Dylan's career, while also serving as idealistic foils to Dylan's more mercurial and ever-shifting persona. And we meet several of the women who inspired and dated Dylan, including Sylvie Russo. She's a fictionalized version of a woman Dylan dated shortly after arriving in New York City. She's played by Elle Fanning. "A Complete Unknown" was directed and cowritten by James Mangold, who made "Walk The Line," the Johnny Cash biopic, as well as other movies like "Logan" and "Ford V Ferrari." It's in theaters now.
Chris, I'm going to start with you. What did you think of "A Complete Unknown"?
KLIMEK: I rolled my eyes when this film was announced, Stephen, because, you know, what cultural object of the 20th century has been more covered than Bob Dylan? You know, in a universe where we have "Inside Llewyn Davis," the wonderful Coen Brothers movie from 2013, looking at the same era and the same scene, and we have multiple great Dylan documentaries, "Dont Look Back" and the Scorsese one, "No Direction Home," I mean, from, you know, a lyric just preceding the lyric that's used as the title of this movie, I was like - and it's the guy who made "Walk The Line," which is - you know, which is a good movie, but...
THOMPSON: But definitely checks a lot of biopic boxes.
KLIMEK: Yeah. So I was delighted to be wrong about this. I have seen this film twice. It surprisingly captivated me. I thought the way that it sort of hopscotched around the biopic tropes, which I suspect is something that James Mangold is particularly sensitive to because "Walk Hard" arrived so soon after "Walk The Line," and I think has kind of subsumed...
THOMPSON: And is so clearly drawing from it.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
KLIMEK: I think it's a little unfair the way that "Walk Hard" has sort of, like, subsumed the cultural memory of...
CHOUDHURY: "Walk The Line."
KLIMEK: Thank you, Bedatri.
(LAUGHTER)
KLIMEK: To the point that I only remember the title of the parody and not the title of the real thing.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
KLIMEK: You know, this film runs two hours and 20 minutes at a very kinetic pace. And even the first time I saw it, I found myself thinking that anytime we cut away from a musical performance in this film, I'm like, I would happily watch the three-hour cut of this...
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
KLIMEK: ...Where we get to see...
CHOUDHURY: For sure.
KLIMEK: ...Each of these songs performed in full. I really, really liked it.
THOMPSON: Wonderful. How about you, Bedatri?
CHOUDHURY: I think it was fine. Like Chris said, the music is great, so you don't feel the almost 2 1/2-hour runtime. And Timothee Chalamet does his - and I'm sure we'll talk about it - he does this - his big Oscar - big acting, big star acting. And so, yeah, I think it was fine. I stuck through it. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the music a lot, which I don't know if it's this - to the credit of this film or to the credit of Bob Dylan or to the credit of my parents who brought me up on good music.
(LAUGHTER)
CHOUDHURY: But yeah, I think he is great. The film is fine. The music is obviously great. But I...
KLIMEK: Yeah.
CHOUDHURY: ...Did not walk away from the film learning anything I perhaps didn't know or wouldn't have known about Bob Dylan. But Monica Barbaro, who plays Joan Baez, is an absolute revelation for me. I loved her so much.
THOMPSON: Yeah. I mean, I'm probably hewing a little closer to Bedatri's take than Chris'. I really liked this movie. I didn't fall in love with it. I agree very strongly that this is a very, very well-acted movie...
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
THOMPSON: ...And, overall, a very well-made movie. The ability to shoot scenes with live music in ways that capture how kinetic and exciting live music can be, that is not something just any director can do.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
KLIMEK: Yeah.
THOMPSON: If you compare the skill that goes into shooting the live performances here to some of the live performances we've seen in movies this year, like "Trap"...
KLIMEK: (Laughter).
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
THOMPSON: ...Or "The Idea Of You"...
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
THOMPSON: ...If you remember that one about the sort of Harry Styles-ish singer - I've seen movies where live music gets flattened...
CHOUDHURY: That's right.
THOMPSON: ...In ways that really suck the joy out of it. It involves a lot of technical skill and a lot of just directorial skill to make live music come across on live - on the movie screen. And I think this movie does that really well. And I think the performances at this film's center, not only Timothee Chalamet as Dylan, but Edward Norton as Pete Seeger, and you mentioned Monica Barbaro as Joan Baez, Bedatri - I think that performance - if that performance doesn't soar as much as it does, this film really starts to fall apart.
CHOUDHURY: Absolutely, yeah.
THOMPSON: I think she deserves so much credit. This feels like a big breakthrough performance.
KLIMEK: Yeah.
THOMPSON: And Baez is such an important counterweight to Dylan.
CHOUDHURY: Absolutely.
KLIMEK: It's so strange. I did not clock Monica Barbaro the first time I saw this movie, you know, and I have seen "Top Gun: Maverick" more than once. And it seems strange to say to - oh, this woman who was in a movie that grossed $1 1/2 billion or whatever it was and saved cinema, but she's destined for bigger things. I think this shows us that she really, really is. Like, that was just a jaw-dropping performance. And the other one, again, like Boyd Holbrook...
THOMPSON: He plays Johnny Cash.
KLIMEK: He plays Johnny Cash. You know, it's impossible not to contrast him with the Joaquin...
CHOUDHURY: Of course. Yeah.
KLIMEK: ...Johnny - Phoenix Johnny Cash from "Walk The Line." But he was another guy where I've seen him in 10 or 12 movies and, you know, as I got to the end credits, I was like, oh, that's who that was. I...
THOMPSON: Right.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
KLIMEK: ...Thought he was great, too.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah. That scene where he wakes up from an all-night bender and tries moving his car out of Bob Dylan's way...
THOMPSON: Yeah.
KLIMEK: Right.
CHOUDHURY: ...I still think about that scene a lot. And I don't think about too many scenes in that film, but that one I do.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "A COMPLETE UNKNOWN")
BOYD HOLBROOK: (As Johnny Cash) Couldn't sleep. Just took a drive. Just smell the ocean.
KLIMEK: There's the slapstick moment there where Johnny, like, just puts his beer bottle on the...
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
KLIMEK: ...Fender of the car and it just slides off and breaks. And, like, I mean, that could be in "Walk Hard," right?
THOMPSON: Right.
KLIMEK: That is just, like, a purely slapsticky (ph) moment that, like, it doesn't derail the scene, but it's - like, it got a big laugh both times I saw this movie.
THOMPSON: I just listed off a bunch of things that I loved about this movie. I don't want to completely gloss over areas that I didn't think worked as well. I don't think it completely avoids biopic cliches.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
THOMPSON: There are certainly moments in this film where I rolled my eyes the way I would roll my eyes if I saw them in the Amy Winehouse movie or the Bob Marley movie or any number of less well-made, well-crafted music biopics. You don't want a drinking game where you take a sip every time someone, particularly a woman, sort of gazes wet-eyed at Bob Dylan as he performs.
CHOUDHURY: A woman or Pete Seeger.
THOMPSON: A woman or Pete Seeger.
CHOUDHURY: Either way.
KLIMEK: Or Woody Guthrie. You know, Woody Guthrie, who is - who cannot speak in...
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
KLIMEK: ...This film. But yeah, certainly gazes, you know, with sort of curiosity and then awe and then unabashed love at Dylan.
THOMPSON: Yeah. There's a lot of that. It also does - as, you know, basically any biopic does, it does a fair bit of fictionalizing. It does a lot of kind of smashing together components of different elements of his story. There are certainly - a certain number of things that are pretty apocryphal kind of make their way into this film.
KLIMEK: Wait, you don't think that Albert Grossman and Pete Seeger were, like, throwing hands at the soundboard at Newport?
(LAUGHTER)
THOMPSON: Yeah. I don't think that - the whole depiction of, you know, plugging in at Newport feels very biopicy (ph), very, like...
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
THOMPSON: They've got Alan Lomax kind of stomping around, like he's the disobeyed police captain in a cop movie.
KLIMEK: And Norbert Leo Butz has played cops.
THOMPSON: Yeah.
KLIMEK: That guy - that's another chameleon, by the way, where I got to the end of the movie, I'm like, oh, you know, another person I've seen in 15 things who I did not clock until the movie was over.
THOMPSON: Yeah. It is certainly not reinventing the biopic form. It is not as experimental a take on Bob Dylan as you would get from a movie like "I'm Not There."
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
THOMPSON: To me, it is like an extremely well-made version of what it is, which is a kind of format of storytelling that brings with it certain inherent limitations.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah. And I think it also - and as is true of most other biopics or the biopic school of filmmaking, is it kind of smooths over the gnarly bits of the story. Like, Bob Dylan - love him or hate him - was a political figure, right? This film starts with Pete Seeger's McCarthy trials. And then you have this passing reference to Bob Dylan singing during the march on Washington. At no other point in the film do you even know what is going on politically and how Dylan is reacting to each of those things - and Joan Baez as well. And I just think I really miss that because there's so much teeth in that. And, like, Dylan, his songs, they are political acts, and it was all very political art. So to just - it's almost like automatic writing in this film. You know, he just wakes up and writes a song while Joan Baez is making him coffee or something like that. But if it's the thought behind it or even the thought behind - why did he choose to go electric? It wasn't a whimsical choice. And especially because this film focuses on that - that is the pivot of the film - I really wish there was a little more depth to, you know, this depiction.
KLIMEK: Yeah.
CHOUDHURY: And Stephen, thank you for, you know, talking about "I'm Not There." I don't think - as amazing as Timothee Chalamet is, I don't think anyone can beat Cate Blanchett as Bob Dylan.
(LAUGHTER)
KLIMEK: So I want to talk about Timothee Chalamet, who reportedly prepped for years to perform as Bob Dylan. One, he has that look anytime the camera leans on him, and he's, like, smug and mischievous and petulant, and, you know, holding his cigarette at that little angle, like watching, you know, whomever is on stage preceding him, whether it's Johnny Cash or Joan Baez and stuff. And it's like this combination of - yeah, I respect these people; I'm their peer, but I'm also about to get out on that stage and smoke them.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah. Yeah.
KLIMEK: I don't think he's doing a Dylan impression. If you watch "Dont Look Back," where there's plenty of scenes of Dylan, you know, talking, that's not how Chalamet does it.
THOMPSON: I agree. I think that's one of the things I really like about this performance. I often rail every Oscar season about that they should group acting categories by original and adapted performance because so many Oscar-nominated performances are simply celebrity impersonation.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
THOMPSON: And this is a depiction that doesn't feel like an impersonation. I did want to respond quickly to something that Bedatri said about where we do and don't see Dylan kind of politicized, where we see him find his politics. And where Dylan finds a lot of his politics - and the movie kind of only hints at this - is from the women he was dating.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
THOMPSON: And the character of Sylvie, who's played by Elle Fanning, who was based on a real-life woman that Dylan dated. Her name was Suze Rotolo, and she was a lifelong activist. She was an activist at the time that Dylan met her, and she was an activist for the entire duration of her life. She was a huge influence on him not only, like, as a muse in the traditional...
CHOUDHURY: Right.
THOMPSON: ...This kind of loaded way that we talk about muses, but she actually, like, informed him. I have to say, I kind of wanted the film to show a little...
CHOUDHURY: Yes.
THOMPSON: ...Bit more of that. I think if there's one performance here or one characterization here that I don't think really fully coheres, it's this Elle Fanning performance as Sylvie. And it is not Elle Fanning's fault. I think it is the film's fault. I think the film eventually just uses her as kind of a typical sad, jealous girlfriend and kind of shows her, like, kind of showing up at things and feeling left behind. It seems to me - and obviously, Dylan is famously unknowable. But it seems to me that, like, she not only inspired him in that she was beautiful, and he was sleeping with her. But, like, she was directing him in a way that, like, resulted in him being seen as the voice of a generation. And I kind of wanted kind of the way that the Joan Baez character carries all this kind of moral weight, as does the Pete Seeger character - I kind of wanted Sylvie to carry some of that weight, too, even though obviously, because she's not a musician, we don't get to see her perform.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
KLIMEK: Yeah.
CHOUDHURY: No, I agree with that, but I will also push back and say that the Joan Baez character definitely needed more of, you know, what you're saying, that, like, not just the moral baggage. And like you said, it's not just about being a muse, right? These two women contributed to Dylan's education...
THOMPSON: Right.
CHOUDHURY: ...As a political being, as a musician. We don't know if the song would have been as big if Joan Baez actually didn't sing it on...
KLIMEK: Right.
CHOUDHURY: ...I'm talking about "Blowin' in the Wind."
THOMPSON: Right.
CHOUDHURY: I mean, we can all go into hypothesis after hypothesis, right? But, like, there is a lack of that acknowledging of just how grave these women and their influences were on what he was writing, singing and just the political person he went on to become. I think there's definitely - that could have definitely had more weight with both Susie and Joan Baez.
THOMPSON: I just found her so interesting throughout this film, and it kind of - often when I see a biopic, one of the first things I do - I almost have, like, a system in place now where I see a biopic, I come home, and I immediately go to Wikipedia.
CHOUDHURY: Yes.
THOMPSON: And sometimes what you see is a point-by-point breakdown of what you've seen, to where you're like, well, I just watched a filmed Wikipedia page. But I didn't go directly to Dylan. I went directly to Baez.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
THOMPSON: And I think that that's something this film does. I almost - I could have almost stood for them to underline it a little bit more than they did. I almost wanted a little more of Baez's story. What it left me wanting more of was more about her and her own music and her own cultural legacy. And she is mercurial in her own way and uncompromising in her own way, and I just think Monica Barbaro did her right.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
THOMPSON: And same goes for Edward Norton as Pete Seeger.
KLIMEK: Yeah.
THOMPSON: I thought that was a lovely kind of transformation and kind of the way that that character and that performance kind of captures what Seeger brought to this conversation and kind of what some of the limitations were to his worldview. You know, while at the same time you just - you come away admiring him just as much as I admired him going into this film.
All right. Well, I think we can agree "A Complete Unknown" certainly gives us, if nothing else, a lot to talk about.
CHOUDHURY: Yes.
THOMPSON: I come down recommending it.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah. And like I said, the music is great. You won't even feel the 2 1/2 hours.
(LAUGHTER)
THOMPSON: All right. Well, we want to know what you think about "A Complete Unknown." Find us on Facebook at facebook.com/pchh and on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com/nprpopculture. We'll have a link in our episode description. Up next, What's Making Us Happy This Week?
Now it's time for our favorite segment of this week and every week - What's Making Us Happy This Week? Bedatri D. Choudhury, what's making you happy this week?
CHOUDHURY: What is making me very happy is Joan Baez's recent book of poetry. It's called "When You See My Mother, Ask Her To Dance." You know, again, I - sometime a couple of months back, I was in Newark, New Jersey, for her book talk, and she talked about how she was diagnosed with a kind of dissociative mental illness. A chunk of these poems actually got written when she was under treatment, and she said us every time she talked about the author and the poet because she said there were, like, many people living inside her head because of this disorder. And this book, you know, some poems are, like, four lines long, some poems are a page or two, and it's absolutely beautiful.
And I know I spoke about her growth as an artist, and this book and the poems in this book are just so beautiful. And you can actually see the arc of how she keeps growing through illness. And she also had some, you know, childhood trauma which she works through, and the poems are all indicative of that but also indicative of how beautifully she healed through all of that. So the book is called "When You See My Mother, Ask Her To Dance," and you can get them wherever you get your books from.
THOMPSON: Wonderful. More Joan Baez. That's the theme of this episode. All right, thank you, Bedatri. How about you, Chris? What's making you happy this week?
KLIMEK: Well, Stephen, I don't know if I've told you about this before, but I have this mix tape project that I like to do every Christmas. And, generally, the focus is on yule tunes that have been correctly naturally selected for extinction.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
KLIMEK: But I do like to wrap it up with something that's sincere and earnest because I do love Christmas. You know, I'm not trying to troll Christmas. So for a thematically apt pairing with "A Complete Unknown," my big finale this year comes from Pete Seeger's wonderful 1967 collection, "Traditional Christmas Carols," which is available, listeners, on all of the big music streamers. I checked. I, of course, used my Smithsonian Folkways LP pressing because I am insufferable.
(LAUGHTER)
KLIMEK: But yeah, Pete Seeger's "Traditional Christmas Carols." Go find it. It's only 32 minutes long - much, much briefer than my mix tape. And it's lovely. So happy holidays, everyone.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah. We are being very topical today. I like that.
THOMPSON: I was going to say.
CHOUDHURY: Yeah.
THOMPSON: I'm sitting here like, man, I should have brought something about Johnny Cash.
CHOUDHURY: Stephen, no pressure (laughter).
THOMPSON: So I'm going to completely pivot elsewhere. I've talked on this show before about how much I love the website Defector, which is a sports and commentary site that sprung from the ashes of Deadspin. Defector is employee-owned, independent media. It's wonderfully esoteric and weird and mean when necessary. It's far and away my No. 1 source of sports commentary these days. But what's making me happy this week is the arrival of Defector's greatest holiday tradition - the writer Drew Magary's "The Hater's Guide To The Williams-Sonoma Catalog."
CHOUDHURY: Oh, my God. I love that name already. OK (laughter).
THOMPSON: (Laughter) "The Hater's Guide To The Williams-Sonoma Catalog" has been an annual tradition for ages now. Drew Magary is one of my favorite writers, even though he is a fan of the Minnesota Vikings. He goes through a catalog full of tacky and overpriced luxury items and basically just goes to town. You got your $60 peppermint bark, your $1,400 drink carts, your artisanal, hand-crafted wine sabers. He goes through and kind of pulls them kind of piece by piece and then offers his own commentary. It's all great fun. The writing is very mean. It is just what my cold, dead heart has required after a very long and strange year. So that's Drew Magary's "The 2024 Hater's Guide To The Williams-Sonoma Catalog," which you can find at defector.com. That is what is making me happy this week. We got your Joan Baez. We got the last lingering threads of the holiday season. Christmas is over. It's still Hanukkah. Anyway, if you want links for what we recommended, plus some more recommendations, sign up for our newsletter at npr.org/popculturenewsletter.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
THOMPSON: That brings us to the end of our show. Chris Klimek, Bedatri D. Choudhury, thanks so much for being here.
KLIMEK: Thank you, Stephen.
CHOUDHURY: Thank you so much, Stephen. And just because you mentioned the Vikings, and I'll lose my job if I don't say this, go Birds.
THOMPSON: Ugh. Go, Pack, go.
CHOUDHURY: (Laughter).
THOMPSON: This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathima and Lennon Sherburne and edited by Jessica Reedy and Mike Katzif. Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Stephen Thompson, and we will see you all next week.
